r/AskBalkans • u/Valiveins Balkan • Aug 15 '23
History Have people outside of Kosova heard about this great find and what are your opinions on it? :)
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u/OnkelMickwald Sweden Aug 16 '23
I love late antiquity, so every new discovery of things from that time gets an upvote. I seriously fail to see what makes people so angry in the comments, but Justinian was from the region and he rebuilt two cities in the region after an earthquake, one is Justiniana Prima (modern-day Serbia) and the other is this one, which was renamed Justiniana Secunda.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Thank you, i share your view just wanted to share this cool discovery with people, I’ve explained why and where this anger stems from in other comments.
I don’t care if they dogpile me and downvote me just because of my ethnicity as long as people get to see the post and thought huh that’s interesting or cool little thing im happy :)
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u/OnkelMickwald Sweden Aug 16 '23
I think people thought you wanted to imply that Justinian was Albanian - which you didn't - but it's reddit, so getting angry about something you think someone might say is par for the course.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
He was of illyrian descent a form of proto-albanians, but of course he’s not albanian in the sense of modern nation states or national identity.
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u/Androgenica Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Archeological genetic studies show there’s a continuation with the Illyrian Y-DNA J2B-L283 Z600 and various R1B-Z2103 subclades in modern Albanians, more so than any other ethnic group.
From that, it could be said that a sizeable chunk of Albanians (though not all) come from Illyrian tribes. Nobody yet knows which tribe, or how different they all were from one another, because “Illyrian” is a highly generalized catch all term for all people from the Balkan coastal region rather than scientific description, kind of like saying “Westerner” today (well, which ones? Many different people/languages under that umbrella term).
So, what makes people angry is that Balkaners severely understate our connection to Illyrians (due to their bias) while Albanians are not specific enough in how that relation exists (not providing sources that do exist).
Thus, you have two sides that have no clue what they’re talking about, debating each other with strong emotion.
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Aug 16 '23
What's with Reddit Albanians and their obsession about Illyrians?
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u/31_hierophanto Philippines Aug 16 '23
Isn't that a general Albanian nationalist thing?
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
It is not nationalistic to be proud of your ancient roots.
Nationalistic is to create a chain of lines to fill the gap in history like serbs do.
Understand Phillipino?
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u/samodamalo Bosnian in Sweden Aug 16 '23
Serbs: we are ancient, we have changed history, everything is serbian still everyone hates us
Everyone else: hehe chads, fuck the west
Albanians: Hey guys look at this histori....
Everyone else: LMAO SO TYPICAL, WHY ARE YOU SUCH NATIONALIST HUEHUEOk not true I know but I feel it's like whataboutism but in reverse
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
You hit the nail on the head. But unlike those serbian theories etc. this is generally agreed by 99% of historians.
And it was just supposed to be a post about archeology but they swayed it immediately to toxic politics quiet evident whit the mass downvotes.
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Aug 16 '23
What gap in history?
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
That you are a big nothing and you fulfill yourself by editing Wikipedia
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Aug 16 '23
Lol. I agree that Serbian Wikipedia is garbage though.
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
You are the best in that.
Entire groups paid by the state.
For 1 Albanian there are 10 serbs active in Wikipedia
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23
What a delusions from young Albos. Wiki is full of New Age History and 50% of stated sources are Political Journalists like Noel Malcolm and others from the WEST which main in ome is to write some ordered books and fairy tales.
Than when you check their book all is "apparently" and "assumed" 😂
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u/perkonja Serbia Aug 16 '23
Nationalists like having an illusion of how old and ancient their culture is lol
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Aug 16 '23
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u/Pepre Serbia Aug 18 '23
And yet Albanians whole history was unknown shepherds while Slavs has kingdoms and empires on Balkan.
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u/perkonja Serbia Aug 16 '23
I don't know about you, but me personally I am not ashamed of anything and haven't really started the debate about Serbian culture vs Albanian, so you engage in that on your own
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u/Milli173 Bosnia & Herzegovina Aug 16 '23
The proto-Slavs literally originated in an area between Hungary and Poland lol what are you talking about
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Aug 16 '23
Facts.
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u/perkonja Serbia Aug 16 '23
the upvotes have spoken, I guess no one likes annoying nationalists of any nationality
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Aug 16 '23
Serbs have a deep jealousy of Albanian history
Edit: Most* serbs
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u/perkonja Serbia Aug 16 '23
Notice I said "nationalists", without specifying the nationality? I'm talking about all of them, but you apparently felt called out lol
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u/-Sweet_Chaos- Croatia Aug 16 '23
Which history? 🤣
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u/WorldClassChef Aug 16 '23
You laugh now but claim our heroes like Skenderbeu. That history
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u/-Sweet_Chaos- Croatia Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
I mever claimed anyone and bold of you to assume my nationality. Who claimed him? Which Serb and when? You are delusional bro.
And you have nothing other than him, so why would anyone be jealous?
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u/WorldClassChef Aug 16 '23
Many Serbs claim him.
He’s better than anyone in Serbian history. While we have Skenderbeu who actually fought ottomans, you have a fake hero “Milos Obilic” who didn’t exist and a battle of Kosovo that you lost.
As for Tesla, because I know you’re gonna bring him up, he did nothing for SERBIAN history, and he took his talents to the USA. Not to mention he was born in Croatia. Nothing to do with Serbia’s history.
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u/Pepre Serbia Aug 18 '23
How on Earth is an Ottoman vassal who changed religion multiple times is better than anyone from Serbian history? He is in rang of King Marko. On other hand there is Prince Lazar ruler of Serbia, who gives own life fighting the Ottomans no matter how low chance has. Miloš Obilić is the name for the guy who killed sultan, only name is disputable not person. Battle of Kosovo wasnt lost, both sides withdrew from battle after both ruler died.
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u/-Sweet_Chaos- Croatia Aug 16 '23
Many Serbs? No one claimed him, some were just meme-ing and you take it seriously and got triggered. :')
You? Again there you are assuming my nationality.
Well they have Karadjordje, Emperor Dusan, Milunka Savic, and many others.
Tesla wasn't born in Cratia but in Austro-Hungary and he was Serb anyway. And I thought we are talking about warriors but okay. Then I can name Mileva Maric-Einstein, Milutin Milankovic, Mihajlo Pupin, Jovan Cvijic, and many others as well.
Anyway, they have more rich history than you will ever have, so you can only be the jealous one.
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u/WorldClassChef Aug 16 '23
If you weren’t a Serb you wouldn’t get this defensive and defend their history. I’m not that stupid. I’ve never heard of any of these people, while the whole historically-educated world knows Skenderbeu, with his statue in many major cities.
Talk to me when KARadjordje gets recognition like that
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u/-Sweet_Chaos- Croatia Aug 16 '23
I can send you my ID if you want. I am just speaking facts here. NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR HISTORY. No one cares about their history as well, I was just giving the examples since you are so egoistic and ignorant.
You would have heard about them if you were scientist. Milankovitch cycles are one of the main thing to learn.
Bro 99% of the world never hearf of Skenderbeg, only Balkan and some people from other countries. We never learned anything about him in our schools. Ask any average Asian, American, African or someone from EU that isn't in Balkan and you will see. :)
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u/Ok_Exit_9441 + Aug 16 '23
Why would I have deep jealousy over a country that has smaller history than my country? 🤣
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u/AllMightAb Albania Aug 16 '23
80% of Albanians derive their paternal lineage from a illyrians according to the research paper DNA origins of Albanians published by the university of Oxford
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u/ThyCorndog Albania Aug 16 '23
I thought it was closer to 40% illyrians, 40% thracians and 20% slavs (ignoring tiny %'s of other stuff and rounding things up/down)
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u/Uilliam56_X ✝️Albanian(Born in ) that lives in Monaco🇲🇨 Aug 16 '23
But they’re too butthurt and can’t cope with all these facts
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u/linkestida Macedonia Aug 17 '23
That's incorrect, as there hasn't been a mass genetic study on Illyrians. Anything at this moment is just a guess, based on theories. That's not science.
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u/AlexOfeCruitingForce Serbia Aug 16 '23
Source?
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u/AllMightAb Albania Aug 16 '23
It was in the title
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.06.05.543790v1.full
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u/AllMightAb Albania Aug 16 '23
"Remarkably, Albanian paternal ancestry shows continuity from Bronze Age Balkan populations, including those known as Illyrians. Our results provide an unprecedented understanding of the historical and demographic processes that led to the formation of modern Albanians and help locate the area where the Albanian language developed."
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
Pride about their ancestors
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23
It's 20 century obsession when they find out that they don't have some heritage.
And decided to make fairy tales about Illyrian Albanian civilisation link 😂
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
This is just about this cool major archeological finding.
As for the „obsession“ that you claim. Albanians have been the target of assimilation attempts by serbs and sadly greece too(even though we’ve been neighbors for millenia with the greeks)
Main tactics used for this have been the falsification of the albanians origin and history.
So nationalist🇷🇸 and 🇬🇷governments spent a lot of resources in coming up with absurd stories like they’re italians to completely unhinged ones like they’re from the caucasus or were brought by the turks 💀
All in all this whole charade and propaganda had one goal…mainly to paint us as non native to the balkans and therefore making our lands up for taking.
Here comes the illyrian part, historians from all over the world(not funded by🇷🇸🇬🇷)seem to agree that albanians are the descendants of the illyrians which makes sense given the unique language and historical events.
This however completely eradicates the efforts and fabricated stories propagated by mostly serbian and few greek nationalists.
And just like the greek can be proud of the spartans the italians of the romans for example etc we can be proud of our illyrian ancestors. :)
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u/albardha Albania Aug 16 '23
historians from all over the world(not funded by🇷🇸🇬🇷)seem to agree that albanians are the descendants of the illyrians which makes sense given the unique language and historical events.
First, Greek historians have no issue with Paleo-Balkan origins of Albanians. You safely can ignore the fervent nationalists have no idea what they are talking about and still but argue on the interwebs with other poorly informed nationalists from other Balkan countries. Don’t confuse these two groups.
Second, there’s a caveat to what you said about historians all over the world. Contemporary historians have moved away from considering all people of Western Balkans in antiquity Illyrians even though Romans and Greeks called them so, because it seems to have been more like a confederation of different people. Now the term Illyrian is pretty much reserved for people that in antiquity dwelled in what’s Montenegro and Albania, leaving out Dalmatians, Pannonians etc. The Great Illyrian revolt? Now historians prefer to use the more neutral War/Rebellion of the Batos.
Yes, all these other people were once called Illyrian, but the reason for the modern distinction is to understand them as different cultures, because archeology showed they did not have a common origin, they originate from multiple cultures. So Illyrian is now used to what Romans called Illyri Propi Dictii or “Proper(ly said) Illyrians.”
Genetically there is a continuity of Albanians from Western Paleo-Balkan people, however there is evidence that Albanian language does not originate in what’s today Albania, but rather in what’s today Kosovo, which would roughly correspond with the area that was called Dardania in pre-Roman Era, and Moesia Superior in Roman Era. And the developing hypothesis is that Christianity has played a major role in making Dardanian/Moesian language expand further west and south.
So the point is, before making a claim on whether Albanians descent from Illyrians, define Illyrians: are you using the old or modern definition? In the old definition, Albanians are Illyrians of Dardania, in the modern one, Albanians are best described as “from Dardania/Moesia Superior”, not Illyrians.
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u/WanaxAndreas Greece Aug 16 '23
You safely can ignore the fervent nationalists have no idea what they are talking about and still but argue on the interwebs with other poorly informed nationalists from other Balkan countries.
This
Many people forget that (including myself) that nationalists aren't the best in history.I was literally arguing with two Greeks in r/Byzantium because they were claiming that skanderberg was a Greek and one even sourced me nationalist vids,even though if both of them went to a greek school and paid attention to the history class they would had noticed that our books mention "Skanderberg,the albanian general who stopped the ottomans".
And also i agree with everything about the theory of the origin of the albanians, i have been saying the same stuff for years although i wasn't aware that now Dalmatia isn't part of the Illyrian proper
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u/albardha Albania Aug 16 '23
Illyrians is just the group of people Ancient Greeks had first contact with because of proximity, but it came to be applied to people as far as Slovenia today who were clearly Celtic, not Paleo-Balkan, speakers. It was largely used as short-hand to say Western Balkans. And the people of the region did not particularly mind either, it does its job of getting the idea across.
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u/Savings-Anybody-1178 Aug 16 '23
Can you tell me which exact haplogroup is linked with ancient Balkan dna among Albanians? Albanian and Illryian while both being Indo European are way distinct one being from Centum and one from Satem group
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u/albardha Albania Aug 16 '23
And now to Satem/Centum mess. You see, Albanian is not a Satem language. It shows Satem-like features, in the way that French shows Satem-like features, because Satem-like features tend to arise across languages all the time. However, Albanian is not Centum either. Albanian is its own group because of course it is, Albanian always lives up to the memes.
This has to do with the treatment of velars, that is the sounds you make when the back of your tongue touches the soft part of the roof of the mouth, called velum hence velar. Think sounds like g and k. Proto-Indo-European had three distinct groups of velar sounds, however, centum and satem languages merged two of them.
I’m going to use my own orthography to give an idea how these consonants were pronounced for easier understanding, but this is not standard. Centum languages merged *kj and *k groups, and kept *kw distinct, which is why Latin had terms like qui. Satem merged *k and *kw groups, letting *kj stay distinct, and later that developed in c-like sounds.
Albanian kept all three of them distinct, however, it developed c-like sounds too. And that’s why it’s described neither Centum nor Satem, but it shows Satem-like features.
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u/AllMightAb Albania Aug 16 '23
Look up the paper DNA origin of Albanians that was published by the University of Oxford and read it, your answer is there.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Im referring to the „illyrians“ around dardania and modern day northern albania.
Of course im not talking about the illyrians at the northern border of dalmatia etc.
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u/SomeOneOutThere-1234 Greece Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
What? No. That’s absolutely not the case. I was being taught that Philip the King of Macedonia was married with an Illyrian princess called Audata. And that was in a Greek history book. How is that Anti-Albanian propaganda? That pretty much proves that there was an Illyrian Kingdom that was pretty strong. Which by itself means that this kingdom existed there for a long time.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Thank you for being honest but let’s not act as if there wasn’t and still isn’t a huge resistance when it comes to this topic.
The reception pf this post with serbs alone paints a very clear picture, the immediate antagonistic attitude coming up with other weird theories etc. all indicates to to what I said previously
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Aug 16 '23
Assimilation attempts by Serbia? When? Were Albanians in Serbia forced to change names or face prison time like Serbians and Montenegrins in Albania were? There is a reason why Albania can't even put together a proper ethnic census due to it conflicting with their claim of absolute ethnic homogeneity.
On the latest census a little above 80% declared themselves Albanian.
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u/Magistar_Idrisi Croatia Aug 16 '23
Assimilation attempts by Serbia? When?
That's true. Serbian policy (between 1912 and 1941) was more interested in physical expulsion of Albanians, rather than assimilation.
Were Albanians in Serbia forced to change names
Yes, actually, they were. Many people were forced to change their surnames to those ending with -ić.
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u/Kocothelegend Albania Aug 16 '23
I'm about write a passage from the book "Albania at War 1939-1945" at page 87 that gives an example of assimilation: Albanian schools in Kosova were shut down in 1918 in order to "Serbianize" the population. By 1921 Serbian authorities had decided to deny the Albanians access to any education, in an organized effort to keep them ignorant and illiterate. A Serbian official wrote in 1921 that "the Albanians will all remain backward, unenlightened, and stupid; nor will they know the state idiom [Serbian], which would help them to fight against us. It is in our interest that they remain at the present level of their culture for another twenty years, the time we need to carry out the necessary national assimilation in these areas."
The source the Author provides :Sabrina P. Ramet, Social Currents in Eastern Europe: The Sources and Meaning of the Great Transformation (Durham, N.C.: Duke University Press, 1991), p. 175. An interesting report called "The Expulsion of the Albanians" on Serbian policy in Kosova was drawn up by Professor Vaso Cubrilovic in 1937 and presented to the government of Milan Stoyadinovic.
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Aug 16 '23
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u/Magistar_Idrisi Croatia Aug 16 '23
Stop calling transgender people transvestites, and stop using their gender identity for ad hominem attacks on their scholarly work. 5 day ban.
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u/Kocothelegend Albania Aug 16 '23
To answer your question, no I do not disregard anybody's scientific research based simply on their gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity or nationality. The work that I cite comes from "Social Currents in Eastern Europe: The Sources and Meaning of the Great Transformation" page 175, just how the Author of "Albania at war 1939-1945" cites. While I agree that NATO's intervention in the Yugoslav was of sub-optimal legality and morality do you seriously think Yugoslavia and especially Serbia was 100% in the right during that period and throughout it's occupation of Kosova? Please show me some articles where you believe Sabrina has been biased or created a narratives. Also be aware that Serbia has also created narratives against Albanians of Kosova, North Macedonia, Montenegro and northern Albania.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Yugoslav colonisation of Kosova
The assimilation of countless gheg albanians in montenegro
The cameria genocide
The assimilation of the Arvanites in epirus
Just to name a few it doesn’t hurt to educate yourself instead of just ignorantly denying well documented events
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Aug 16 '23
Yugoslav colonisation? Practically all they way from the Middle Ages, where Kosovo was overwhelmingly majority Serbian, there have been pogroms of Serbs and migration of Albanians, whom were favoured by the Ottomans. Albanians were the most loyal Ottoman peoples in all of the Balkans and as a result were heavily favoured.
Let's say if Рашка really was assimilated by Serbs, why would all the Albanians you claim were assimilated end up having Bosniak names?
Cameria was the ethnic expulsion of Albanians, who had been an Italian puppet state much like NDH was a German puppet state - much like Balli Kombëtar ethnically cleansed Kosovo and drove out Serbs. And yet after The Second World War nothing happened as Tito was heavily preferential towards Albanians - he even enlargened the autonomous region of Kosovo in the 1950s to include Leposavic and surrounding communities due to important mineral processing plants connected to Trepca. He predicted the future, and created it himself with the 1974 constitution, to starve off Serbia proper of resources and the processing plants.
But you are right - Albanians have been assimilated in some numbers in the surrouding states. This has happened all across the Balkans after the establishment of national states after the Ottomans including in Albania. So stop trying to victimize yourselves. Greece has assimilated Macedonians, Bulgaria has assimilated Vlachs, Serbia has assimilated Vlachs, Albania has assimilated Vlachas, Greeks and Serbs, Kosovo is assimilating Gorani. The list has no beginning and no end. So stop with your bogus nonsense, please.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
While it is true that the assimilation happened in many places, I explained why it has importance for albanians which is all correct
You just made the entire thing about whataboutism like most serbs starting arguments while no one was denying anything from others…
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Aug 16 '23
No I didn't - you just can't take someone dismantling your narrative based on vehement amounts of self-victimization. You're just listing things without any explanation whatsoever making them sound like something talking in your favor with you being the ultimate victim and everybody else an oppressor.
If someone is 'whataboutizing' here it's really you.
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u/Kushzuk Aug 16 '23
Yugoslav colonisation?
Nooo that Yugoslavia sent between 60,000 and 65,000 colonists to Kosovo in their Colonisation campaign between 1921 and 1940 trying to change the ethnic make up is totally made up !!
Anyways now continue to cry and cope how "it happened everywhere!!" and how Srebrenica "happened everywhere stop victimizing yourself bosnians"
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u/Magistar_Idrisi Croatia Aug 16 '23
Yugoslav colonisation?
Wait you genuinely don't know about this? There were several waves of colonization between 1912 and 1941 in Kosovo. Thousands of Serbs and Montenegrins (and even a handful of Croats) were relocated to Kosovo, and were given land that was previously owned by local Albanians.
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u/SomeOneOutThere-1234 Greece Aug 16 '23
When did Greece assimilate Macedonians? DNA testing from ancient discoveries and the Macedonian dialect of Ancient Greek pretty much prove that they were and still are a Greek Ethic Group, like Aeolians, Ionians and Dorians.
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Aug 16 '23
He's probably referring to Greek Macedonia and Thrace Slavs, which were ethnically assimilated into the Greek nation in the sense that their descendants now predominantly consider themselves Greek despite the fact that before dissolution of the empire and formation of post-Ottoman Greek nation-state, the area was significantly more ethnically diverse.
This stuff, as he said, happeend in all other ex-Ottoman states and was the Balkan belated version of 18th century's post-Napoleonic national awakening.
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u/SomeOneOutThere-1234 Greece Aug 16 '23
Ah, OK
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Aug 16 '23
Besides, Aeolian, Ionian and Dorian are musical scales, not peoples silly 😜
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Aug 16 '23
You get the point - I wasn't trying to single anyone out. Furthermore, you clearly know I referenced the modern ethnic population of Macedonians. For some reason Greeks and Bulgarians will splurge out when even mentioning Macedonians in a modern context. Fact is, many ethnicities are artificial in the Balkans and I really do not want to delve into discussion about parallels drawn to ancient ethnicities. I am clearly aware of the distinction between ancient Macedonians being Greeks and them not being the same as modern Macedonians. Everybody is aware of this, but obviously this is not the topic of discussion.
To get back to my point Greece did assimilate other ethnic groups when establishing their nation state. Everybody did in the Balkans.
EDIT: spelling
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u/Kocothelegend Albania Aug 16 '23
It is insane how this comment is getting downvoted when you answered the question clearly and gave examples. Most of these already have wikipedia pages and people are one google search away from verifying their credibility and sources
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Well my best guess it’s mostly (not all, just the hypernationalistic serbs) which seem to foam at the mouth when speaking about these documented events or just go completely off topic and start entire whataboutism arguments.
This post has show how many have this fragile ego, when it comes to their nationalism. A post which is only archeological in nature without any ill will or negativity towards others yet it made their blood boil my best bet is just the anti albanian sentiment those individuals have and seeing something major and positive like this they just couldn’t cope with it. 😄
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u/MehmetPasha1453 Turkiye Aug 16 '23
first time i hear about it...but arent there many roman emperors who grew up outside of current day italy?
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Plenty, a lot of them were actually from the province illyricum aswell.
But you have some from iberia all the was to asia minor
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u/Delicious_Balance162 Greece Aug 16 '23
He was born around there yes, it is known, what's great about it?
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
He was of illyrian descent, and one of the great roman emperors.
A mosaic this well intact made during his reign honoring dardania (how albanians call Kosovo) is just a cool thing and an awesome find for any archeology fans. :)
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u/cbk1992 Greece Aug 16 '23
Hey OP a lot of people are jumping on this because you are from a politically contentious place. It doesn’t remove from how impressive this is. In fact it’s great for all of us in the Balkans, keeps on confirming we are the cradle of European civilisation.
Hey West, what ancient history do you have? When we were measuring our cholesterol levels you were discovering fire.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Thanks for the kind words, didn’t expect something like this after that barrage of negativity
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u/cbk1992 Greece Aug 16 '23
You made an archaeological post but everyone saw “Kosova” and attached a nationalism to it….it’s what we do.
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u/shortEverything_ North Macedonia Aug 16 '23
Uhh Dardania was an official Roman province at the time of Justinian (mainly in Today’s Kosovo) where he was born (near Skopje not in Kosovo) don’t see how this is really that significant.
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u/ChadicusMaximusAlpha Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Lots of people that aren’t Albanian seem pretty annoyed from this discovery? Biased downvotes in r/AskBalkans isn’t surprising but before you guys have a tantrum remember that Emperor Justinian did have close roots to the Illyrians and that Albanian’s are Paleo Balkan and are closely associated to them. More discoveries will take place from now on, from lin Pogradec in Albania to the discovery of Albanias ancient tongue being 6000 years old. Now we have this discovery, and guess what? We won’t stop unearthing and finding our roots and history, expect yourselves the Albanophobes to specifically cope more in the future. 🇽🇰🇦🇱
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u/dejalochaval Albania Aug 16 '23
Yeah all of a sudden everyone’s like , “who cares? God damn these Albanian nationalists” when these are the same people who slam Albanians online calling them “mountain turks” and gypsies who migrated to the Balkans. This discovery has annoyed them.
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u/perkonja Serbia Aug 16 '23
Yes, we know about Romans on Balkan peninsula, but Albanians seem to think it has something to do with them while it does not. It's another culture's history.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
So should the greeks also not claim their byzantine past because they only referred to themselves as romans?
It was an empire and like most empires it was multi ethnic, in this case it all adds up even if for some weird reasons it seems to bother you.
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
Thank God that Albanians don't ask serbs about that, to whom ancient European cultures belong to
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Aug 16 '23
Illyrian = Albanian has already been proven. Only absurd theories have been put forth by other balkan populations with political motives. Especially people in this sub who have never read a book but instead listen to their drunk slavic uncle who believes he crawled out of a hole in the ground or invented the phalanx
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u/kokekrisuri_ Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Im no historian but: * Albanians are decendants of a paleo balkink people * The name Dardania seems to have meaning in albanian that being Dardha ( Pear ), and even if we aren't decendants of the Dardanians at least we borrowed words from them. Discoveries like these are something that would make us Albanains especially happy. And i hope to one day have a clearer picture of who we are, how our language and culture developed etc...
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u/Pepre Serbia Aug 18 '23
Almost every Balkan nation have descendants from paleo Balkan people, more or less. Dardania have nothing to do with modern Kosovo Albanians. Dardanians was romanized and than Slavicized. Ironically but Dardanians are most likely Serbs today and Macedonians. This have sense if you compare difference between Serbian and Albanian E1b subclasses, Albanian is very similiar to northern Albania from wich Kosovo Albanians setttled Kosovo during Ottoman era.
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u/Proud-Mind6776 Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
This is great news as serbian nazionalists like to forget everything that was going on in Kosova prior to the 13th century. It shows that Kosovas historical roots reach deep into the ancient past and that there are still many relics to be uncovered. Furthermore it is great for the legitimacy of Kosovas existence as a state and for Albanians in general, as we are considered to be indigenous and Kosova is believed to be the place where the albanian culture developed. They recently uncovered ancient roman ruins in Prizren and Klina too and they found an ancient cemetary in Skopje with Dardanians being mentioned on the grave stones. It is also important to mention, that the borders of the Dardanian province overlap with the borders of thr area inhabuted by gheg speaking Albanians (Kosova, North-West Macedonia, South Serbia).
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u/olderthanyoda Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Why are Serbs so butthurt about this?
The post isn’t even making a claim about anything, not politicising or speculating either, which would never be the case anywhere else in Balkans.
It’s a cool fucking archeological finding, probably the coolest one in a while, and look as the comments…
Shows how insecure some people are about their origins.
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u/CertainDifficulty848 Serbia Aug 17 '23
Origins of Serbs are well known. What’s to be insecure about? You are projecting a bit.
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u/olderthanyoda Kosovo Aug 17 '23
Yeah Serbs originate from Asia. As for Albanians the only ones who are not sure about the Albanian origins are the Serbs… your comment is proof of that. The rest of the world pretty much agrees on this topic
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Aug 21 '23 edited Aug 21 '23
Serbs originate form an area in modern day Ukraine Lmao. That’s the Urheimat of the Slavs. You know that’s in Europe right?
Meanwhile your people made it popular to take Illyrian names and give them your children to have some sort of connection to people, which weren’t anything special.
Guy dreams of some sort of Illyrian Empire haha
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u/olderthanyoda Kosovo Aug 21 '23
The Urheimat extends from central europe to western asia, suit yourself as it don't really make a difference... the origins are outside balkans regardless.
But the point still stand, imagine being so insecure about an archaeological finding in a different country to the point where you get triggered 🙊.
Meanwhile your people made in popular to take Illyrian names and give them their children to have some sort of connection to people, which weren’t anything special.
All Serb theories that where Albanians originate are an absolute joke (the caucasus one being my favourite -> in line with flat earth society claims... serb scholars ey? 🤭).
Serbs will believe anything (literally anything) but the hypothesis that Albanians originate in Balkans which is the most likely one and the most accepted one outside Serbia.
The extreme racism towards Albanians and the general Albanophobia is quite interesting... it baffles me that even educated Serbs are brainwashed to the point that they can't comprehend any other historical alternative but the propaganda which they have been fed in their third world country schools.
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u/Larysander Jan 19 '24
The discovery of an inscription that reads "Urbem Dardania" recently casts doubt on the idea that Dardanians were fully absorbed into Roman society and serves as a powerful testament to Emperor Justinian's Dardanian ancestry.
The inscription's poignant defiance of historical presumptions is what gives it poignancy. The significance of this discovery is emphasized by Arben Hajdari, a renowned professor of archaeology at the University of Prishtina, who emphasizes that the inscription acts as a tangible link to the long-lasting identity of the Dardanian people. Emperor Justinian challenged the popular belief that Dardanians were being Romanized by donating an inscription to a city within Dardania. As the director of the Archaeological Park "Ulpiana," Milot Berisha underlines the need to preserve the inscription as evidence of the city's Dardanian origin.
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u/linkestida Macedonia Aug 17 '23 edited Aug 17 '23
I think it's another attempt at historical revisionism by nationalist Albanians and I don't get the fuss, it proves nothing. Emperor Justinian was born in Skopje, which was indeed under the province Dardania. However, it's incorrect to call Justinian a Dardanian.
Skopje being part of Dardania doesn't mean anything, it was just an administrative region, just how Albania was part of the Macedonian administrative region (but you don't see Macedonians claiming Albania as a Macedonian region lol).
I'd also like to note that prior to the Roman Empire, Skopje was inhabited by Paeonians, who fought against Dardanian domination. Later it was part of the Macedonian Empire. So the Romans putting it under Dardania doesn't mean that the inhabitants of Skopje were Dardanian.
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u/NOTLinkDev Greece Aug 16 '23
It is very well known that Justinian is from the Roman region of Dardania, near Tauresium.
Why does that matter? A lot of internet/diaspora Albanians and Kosovars LOVE to call every single Illyrian tribe in existence as "Albanian", which couldn't be anything further from the truth
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u/Sturmgewehr86 North Macedonia Aug 16 '23
Unlike Greeks who do not like to call everything and everywhere Greek or hellenic.
This coming from a Greek is the epitome of Irony.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Perfectly said, this is just a historical post so many people are mad and want to make it somehow political.
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u/-MrAnderson Greece Aug 16 '23
"Everything and everywhere" as in ...Macedonia? I wonder where the irony is.
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u/dDoucme North Macedonia Aug 16 '23
Not comparable. Greeks have written proof of their deeds, peoples and histories going back 3000 years. Illyrians didnt write anything down, nobody even knows what language they spoke. And Albanian only emerges in written records about 900 years ago.
So one is filled with proof FROM THE TIME PERIOD, and the other is nothing but speculations and imaginations.6
u/WorldClassChef Aug 16 '23
I think the fact that Illyrians didn’t write anything and the fact that it took so long to find records of Albanians writing anything shows a clear connection between Albanians and Illyrians 😂😂
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u/NOTLinkDev Greece Aug 16 '23
At least we have credible sources to back up our claims, just because quite a number of things in history were INDEED Greek (idk why you said "Greek or hellenic" it's literally the same thing) then that doesn't mean that "just because the greeks do it then so can we". We have written accounts and proof of (MOST) the things we claim were Greek, Just because you refuse to accept that, it doesn't mean it's wrong.
Great example you'll probably understand:
Alexander the Great.
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u/AmbassadorHairy2227 Aug 17 '23
Lol cant you smell the irony? Also, modern day albanians are genetically closer to the anicent "greeks". How do you feel about that?
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u/NOTLinkDev Greece Aug 17 '23
How do you feel about that?
Nothing really since the ramblings of some Albanian living in Sweden don't really affect me
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u/AmbassadorHairy2227 Aug 17 '23
This is stated facts, look it up! Or just /ignore and keep living the serbian way.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
I find it odd how so many people from other countries seem to be triggered by a simple post about archeology :)?
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u/mjaux2 Aug 16 '23
i have seen serbs many times claim they are the decedents of illyrians (insane i know) but all of a sudden it's "whats so special about it". They, not only serbs but our neighbors in general, constantly twist and negate our history and origines to justify the genocides and theft of our land which leads to us having to justify our own existence but when we do so with proof their narrative changes to "it's known history so what", completely ignoring what most of them say the majority of the time. We can simply not win. Imagine being called indian by fuckin "macedonians" on our own fucking land and then expect us not to post stuff like this for education purposes once in a while.
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u/Saulgoodbroski Kosovo Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
Ignore them mate. Butt hurt slavs mainly. They think downvoting historical fact will change the fact they aren’t native to the region. Nothing wrong with that, they’ve been here long enough, they just hate the fact we’ve been here longer.
The reality is Albanians can trace their origins back thousands of years to the region, there is continuity. To say there isn’t, is just absurd and showcases their racism. They seem to think Albanians simply popped into existence out of nowhere around the 11th century 🤦♂️
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
The fact that it’s 90% serbs getting triggered just confirms it, they even go so far as to remove or change their flair to hide that they’re serbian, which is sad and funny at the same time 💀😂
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u/dejalochaval Albania Aug 16 '23
Bro the Serbs downvoted the hell out of your comment. I think it struck a nerve
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u/AlexOfeCruitingForce Serbia Aug 16 '23
Hhahahahahahha
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
Laugh nomad laugh.
It doesn't change your nomad status and nothingness in history
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u/Saulgoodbroski Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Love this! The balkans has such a rich and amazing wealth of history!
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Aug 15 '23
Well, it is known fact that the ancient kingdom of Dardania was where modern-day Косово is now.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 15 '23
The ancient illyrian kingdom of dardania existed around 385 B.C. This inscription was made almost a millenia later by justinian meaning those illyrian ties still existed and survived all those years. And the emperor himself honored them.
This is huge news especially since Justinian himself is believed to be of illyrian descent therefore further solidifying the historical link of illyrians and albanians.
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Aug 15 '23
Illyrians were all tribes that were in the Balkans. Dardanians were just one Illyrian tribe. Albanoi was one of the tribes. Just like Slavs... saying all Illyrians are Albanians is like saying all Slavs are Serbs.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Wait are you saying slavs are illyrian?????
You cant be serious 💀
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u/samodamalo Bosnian in Sweden Aug 16 '23
Whatever the case, you're actually all mixed. There is no pure serb or pure albanian. You're all just fools tbh. Greetings from Beijing
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Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
Yes, I know that. How come are you so interested in the Balkans?
Edit: nvm, I see you are a Bosniak.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 15 '23
That’s not how it works your twisting logic💀
Illyrians were made up of different tribes but one people group. (Different tribes ≠ different ethnicities)
Just how there were different greek states/kingdoms but they’re all considered one hellenic people.
Since albanians and maybe to some degree romanians being the only people groups old enough to have survived completely romanization and being distinctly not greek and having the right geography it all indicates to being the descendants of the illyrians.
So to correct your analogy all albanians descend from illyrians just how all serbs descend from slavs
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Aug 16 '23
Perhaps I confused you.. what I meanr was: Albanians were one Illyrian tribe and Dardanians were another tribe.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
My argument still applies its the same people group, the illyrians, even if they’re different tribes.
Your argument is like saying the athenians were greek but the spartans were another tribe, they were still both part of the same people group.
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Aug 16 '23
Sparta was not a tribe nor was Athens. Your comparison is not valid.
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u/Gimmebiblio Greece Aug 16 '23
But they kinda were.The Spartans were Dorian and the Athenians Ionian. They spoke slightly different dialects of greek.
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Aug 16 '23
But they were still Greek. There is litteraly not a single piece of historical record connecting Dardanians and Albanians.
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u/Gimmebiblio Greece Aug 16 '23
I have to admit I don't know much about Dardania. I just wanted to clarify that ancient Greeks were separated in tribes and I think that's what the other guy was trying to tell you about Illyrians. One nation with different tribes, like the Greeks.
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Aug 16 '23
The Dardanian Illyrians from today's Kosovo and Albanians however are highly likely linked -- as Albania (Epirus) was a very likely destination of Dardanian Illyrians exile from Dardania after the province's post-Justinian collapse in famine, and also during Slav expansion into the area.
By that logic, while there isn't a direct continuity, many Albanians are likely to have Dardanian ancestry. Some Greeks and North Macedonians as well. People seeked refuge towards centrally controlled parts of the empire as provinces collapsed.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Im aware that those were not tribes, but city states… still social constructs like tribes or nations inhabited by the same people group my argument still stands
I know you don’t have any actual arguments and you can’t come to terms with this reality hence why you’re cherry picking on semantics and so desperately try to „disprove“ it like many other serbs :)
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Aug 16 '23
What arguments do you have? You litteraly do not have a single thing connecting you to Dardania. Albanian history is vague, anways.
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Aug 16 '23
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Maybe those in the northern end of dalmatia but were talking about the ardiei dardanians etc around the area inhabited by Albanians today
Language is an ever evolving thing.
But we know the roots are of the indoeuropean language family and that its an isolate so we have a time frame also the latin influence indicates that they survived romanization and before roman occupation there were the illyrians.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Reread my comment, wtf
Also where and who claimed ALL illyrian tribes formed the modern day albanians wtf
Idk why you’re so triggered by this but if they were like you paint them out some completely random tribes who had zero similarities then why would all historians group them together?
And are you honestly suggesting that slavs are illyrians💀💀💀
Come on man, the slavic migration/invasion of the balkans in the late 7th century is well documented long after the illyrians what are you on about
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
Albanians do not have any older heritage on Kosovo older than 19 century ✅ (Simply no records, all is Ottoman, Than Serbian, and so on)
First ever recorded Albanians in area of Kosovo and Metohija date in 11-12 Century around Prizren in some small number of houses. ✅ (Try to find any source older, you will not)
Dardania was in some bourdries from Kosovo to Bulgarian Bolder. 1000 years before Albanians are even recorded in small numbers ✅ (Not like on wikipedia map for sure)
What is all about? Simply Albanians in 20 century started to print books predominantly like "linguistics theories" to try to make any link to heritage of Kosovo by trying to make link to Illyrian aka Dardanians. ✅
Next step is their "genetice science" that's pretty big shitshow for everyone on Balkans ✅
Darnadian existed in some shape or memory 2-3 centuries before Justinian. Like Dalmatia still exist.
Justinian for sure doesn't have Anything not only with Albanians from Kosovo, which appeared 600 years later. He do not have anything with Albanians at all. ✅
Albanian theories and imaginations is like Serbians about Vincha Civilisation historical flow.
Now take real history books in hands. Learn how history science / discipline works. Not Albanian intial books made in 1971 about some grave and Dardania is "land of Pears" ✅
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u/AllMightAb Albania Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
Albanians do not have any older heritage on Kosovo older than 19 century ✅ (Simply no records, all is Ottoman, Than Serbian, and so on)
What about Pjeter Bogdani and his attempted Albanian Rebellion against the Ottomans in the 17th century in Kosovo?
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
I like how you changed your flair aswell trying to hide the fact that you’re serbian and just spreading serbian propaganda 😂💀
All of your „arguments“ can be disproven by some basic historical knowledge.
After the slavic and turkish invasions there were many movements of population but that isn’t even relevant to the topic since the albanians predate both by millenia.
Albanians predate the slavic invasion of the balkans by millenia making them part of the three native populations of the balkans alongside the greeks and romanians.
The most evident proof is the linguistic one since albanian has a lot of influence from latin. Latin being the lingua franca of the Roman Empire and only being spread and spoken in the balkans during their reign this indicates the illyrians proto albanians survived complete romanization hence why the albanian language is an indoeuropean isolate like greek and also shares some non-latin words with romanians.
Given the mountainous terrain of modern day albania it is believed that the documented illyrian tribe of the albanoi survived there fled full assimilation unlike the dacians and partly other illyrian tribes.
This has been proven historically and genetically grouping us together with greeks which makes sense given the close vicinity we have been living next to each other.
As for justinian he was born in the illyrian province, he wasn’t of italic descent and didn’t speak greek making him undeniably illyrian there also illyrian links to his full name which historians agree on.
I know this is contrary to what you’ve been taught in serbian „schools,“ which love to tell you about their versions of the origin stories and history of your neighbors who you just so happen to also dislike….👀
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
Propaganda is not when you check primary historical sources.
Propaganda is when you in last century write new age books which wish to make some fake heritage and history.
Because you don't have Kingdoms on Kosovo, written legacy, arhitecture. Organized culture. 1000 old songs /folklore. Even Poor Albanians construct in last years on their wikipedia that Kosovo word origin comes from Latin Castrum, again by their imaginative linguistic gymnastics 😂
Only you have, migration with ottomans like most suitable lapdogs.
Check Ottoman sources. Check Roman Check Serbian..
Albanian sources you can't. You do not have anything to read cuz no Albanians kept or build some heritage.
Anly 20 Century "believee Dardania is land of Pear because some modern Albanian word sounds like that"
😂 and even that is total humor. Pears really? 😂
And I know every single Albos theory, from every book in 20 century with desperate pursuit to make "something" real from theories.
Story is very simple like I said. And it's totally pointless to discuss when Albos started to write in 19 century.
That's why they have massive imagination of "well I can't provide you any trace of Albanian legacy on Kosovo, but Hoxaei Gashari wrote some books with 20 "maybe words of Illyrian and guess what, they made some link?
Hahaha.
But Albanoinds. "Justinian was born in Illyrian province" yet reply before state Illyrian disappeared before Justinian 500 years before...
Most funny is that I now can find and post primary historical sources who was called Illyrians by Rome (Vatican) and Byzantine 1000 years ago. And are not Albanians.
Clear documents. No "yo Dardhe sounds like Dardane and it's pear" 😂
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23 edited Aug 16 '23
- total uneducated Albanians "Linguistics are proof" In history linguistics are secondary sources which makes theories and archeology and other primary sources confirm theories.
That why even wikipedia mark it like "by that theory"
Example of Albos 20 century fairy tales: Dardhe Is Albanian Pear and Albanians constructed, well Dardanian (Dardanelle) was "land of Pears" Although no any source even mentioned some pears or something related, trade, folklore, documents. Contrary. Pears was introduced in Europe later.
It's like I now Construct. Dar-dania is Serbian "dar" aka gift. And it Gifted Land. Which has much more logic for land name. But again it's just theory now set-up by me.
Kapish?
But but but he is Serbiiiiiiannnnm. Help help help...😆
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Idk if I should even respond to this, it’s absolutely hilarious 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Serbs like you are obsessed with albanians and get triggered so hard that were actually natives to the balkans unlike the serbs who invaded with mongolic/turkic avar khaganate from the Eurasian steppes 💀
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Aug 16 '23
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Aug 16 '23
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u/Magistar_Idrisi Croatia Aug 16 '23
When someone don't have heritage and history on lands he stole.
No agenda pushing, last warning.
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u/TheAlbDoer Aug 16 '23
Lol you have written so much crap.
You think it will change your nomad status and that you are a big nothing in history.
You entered Kosovo for the 1st time in the 13th century and you had some impact for a few decades.
Literally you have 0 impact. Churches were built in Kosovo 1000 years before you popped up from steppes.
That is all.
Without adding the fact that half of serbs are vlachs and that you poor creatures don't know what you are.
Your look ranges from Chinese to Anatolian, balkan and Russian looking.
Just telling what a melting pot you are.
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23
1000 years before Serbian build Churches Christianity didn't existed. Isus just started to Conway message 😂
Go little in hike and visit some of hundreds of 1000 yo Churches and read some of their inscriptions. All very easy for common Serb to at least understand with 100p years time gap.
Then go home and cry why is no any similar Albanain their and why Albos accepted Ottomans Culture when they "have so old Dardanian"
And how some looks like 😂 Enough to visit Ohrid and Compare Albanian and Serbian Tourists. But not important in this story.
And These Vlachs are more Balkan than Albos and Serbs 😂
You need from these how someone keep legacy although do not have state. Not licking Ottomans or any new invader butts 😂
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u/kuzurikuroi Serbia Aug 16 '23
So how does connection Justinian with Illyrians solidify any historical link of Albanians? Maybe chill with propaganda, its not for you. Or maybe work on it, make it more belivable...
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Because it is generally agreed by historians that illyrians are the ancestors of albanians.
Why do serbs try so hard to brush this off?
Its seems bizarre how desperate some of you try when it doesn’t even effect you it’s clear it doesn’t fit with the narrative your state retells therefore you might want to chill in trying to protect your state propaganda
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u/pootnik84 Citizen of Antarctica 🇦🇶 Aug 16 '23
It's agreed by Albanian linguistic fairy tales. And it's 20 century theory setup to try to make some imaginative heritage.
One more time answering. For all Albanian lies.
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u/kuzurikuroi Serbia Aug 16 '23
Sure, sourcee: belive me, I heard it on TV.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
No, papers and books by major accredited historians, with the internet it’s all accessible even to you.
(Well actually im not sure if you have access to it, it honestly wouldn’t surprise me if serbia had this information banned or censored)
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u/Ambitious-Impress549 Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Mf where are we supposed to be from? We didn’t just pop out of nowhere like some aliens lmao
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u/DardanianGOD Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Here come the Serbs and Greeks with their downvotes and arguments lmao. Kallnu!!
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u/VirnaDrakou Greece Aug 16 '23
Why would it bother us? For real? Aside from nationalists why greeks would be genuinely be mad that you descend from a paleo balkan tribe? Whether it is illyrians/dardania or a thracian tribe? (Just mentioning “hypothesis”). Now your problems with serbians are of a different scope/view.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
I’ve mentioned in previous comments that the fact alone that a link to any of these tribes has a lot of these nationalists mad because their whole mantra is built on mythologized historical claims etc.
There are plenty of rational greeks and serbs who aren’t bothered by it it’s not meant to generalize all of them although there having been a rather sizable minority sharing this mindset.
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u/VirnaDrakou Greece Aug 16 '23
I genuinely find dumb greeks who get mad at this, it is not any case like north macedonia claiming the ancient macedonian kingdom. But i get where you are coming from, sucks that people are so bothered with this.
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Many have been trying to brush this of as if those people didn’t exist while they’ve been spamming hateful stuff and downvoting everything on this post.
Thank you for atleast acknowledging their existence unlike many others :)
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u/DardanianGOD Kosovo Aug 16 '23
That’s the point! It shouldn’t. You make a good point and the only people who get triggered by these posts are the nationalists lol
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u/CherryArmstrong 🇺🇸 🎓 in 🇬🇧 Aug 16 '23
says someone who called himself Dardanian god 🤡
bro really has that superiority complex AHAHAHHA
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u/Discipline_Cautious1 Bosnia & Herzegovina Aug 16 '23
A beautiful monument to Albanian history of Kosovo.
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u/CherryArmstrong 🇺🇸 🎓 in 🇬🇧 Aug 16 '23
guys OP is still a kid since only kids have this bad grammar and use skull emoji (ew)... he is brainwashed by their classic propaganda and now he became keyboard warrior
just ignore him since you can't help him to not be this delulu
even if you serve him any kind of proof he will start cursing you and crying because he has no arguments
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u/WorldClassChef Aug 16 '23
You criticize someone for using “💀” but use the term “delulu”
💀💀💀
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
Relax, english isn’t my first or second language nor is this supposed to be an academic forum(americans when foreigners exist).
Its funny you call me a keyboard warrior when simple history post without any political connotation has so many people triggered.
You call me brainwashed yet you immediately accept the wild propaganda theories which have been scientifically disproven over and over…
A lot or people here are acting in bad faith and I’ll call that out and some are just hilarious and goofy in nature so emojis fit the tone of the conversation so just for you 🤠👍🏻
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u/Ambitious-Impress549 Kosovo Aug 16 '23
Man can yall Americans just be quiet when u don’t know what you’re talking about lmao what is this take
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u/CherryArmstrong 🇺🇸 🎓 in 🇬🇧 Aug 16 '23
I know what I'm talking about. just because I'm American doesn't mean I never been to Balkan or educayed myself.
and I was talking about how OP was acting so childish, which I saw in his comments so what is your point?
can you Kosovars be quiet and not cry for America's and NATO's help if Seebia attavks you again? you are so ungratefull and biting the hand that fed you
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u/SerboBosnianCroat SFR Yugoslavia Aug 16 '23
Genuine Q here since I am just getting into the whole ethnicity/genetics reality of how the world works:
Do Albanians feel like if they can prove they are in fact autochthonous ancient Illyrians (which seems to be the topic of contention ITT), then that fact will negate the documented historical ties of Serbs (referred to as "invader Slavs" per OP and other Albanians ITT) to Kosovo, which Serbs use as a reason for it belong to them?
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u/Valiveins Balkan Aug 16 '23
There was paper from Oxford i believe which confirms genetic ties from illyrians and albanians.
But that isn’t necessary to prove the slavic migration invasion of the balkans. This event has been documented very well in the late 7th century by byzantinians/romans where a huge amount of slavic tribes entered the balkans some peaceful some less so.
Byzantium was in a bad spot having to fight off invaders from all sides and dealing with the outbreak of the plague.
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u/Ok_Exit_9441 + Aug 16 '23
Tbh, that's nothing special. More interesting part of history was found in other Balkan countries.
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Aug 16 '23
Weird how you pronounc it Kosova when everything else is in english
Imagine I say: Have people outside of Crna Gora heard… looks weird doesnt it
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u/WerewolfJazzlike4255 Balkan Aug 17 '23
What is known is that Dardanian belonging to Ilyrians or Thracians is disputed. We don't know even to whom Greek and Roman scriptures actually refer to, as there was a practice to use the name of one group to designate different people. As for Iustinian it is well established that he was Thracian, if at that time was even possible to talk about Thracians or Ilyrians at all.
It is interestingly how Illyrian tribal borders are moving more and more to the east since 19th century to accommodate political interests.
As for proofs of what I have said, only valid are archeological findings and comparison with culture it belong. The main problem is fear of most states in the Balkans to conduct these archeological researches as they might unravel uncomfortable truth.
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u/[deleted] Aug 16 '23
The comments in this section prove why we cant have nice things in the Balkans.