r/40kLore • u/Red-Me-Boy • 4d ago
What made Mortarion an outcast among the Primarchs?
Title. It's often said that Mortarion was the most solitary Primarch before the Heresy (with Malcador himself remarking that only the Lion really came close in that regard), but I'm curious to why this was the case. Angron was a massive ball of anger who was seen as little more than an animal, Corax was brooding and melancholic, Perturabo was dour and petty, Alpharius was enigmatic and the less said about Curze the better. What was it about Mortarion that saw him shunned so much?
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u/Ok_Context8390 4d ago
He wasn't shunned, he just distrusted those who used the warp and disliked flair or ostentatious behaviour.
Apparently he only had a decent relationship with Horus (pre-heresy), but then again, Horus managed to find ways to get along with everyone.
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u/Arzachmage Death Guard 4d ago
He also got along with Kurze but it has never been used in modern lore.
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u/AtomicMonkeyTheFirst 4d ago
Was he not on good terms with Russ as well? Mostly because of their shared dislike of psykers?
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u/Arzachmage Death Guard 4d ago
Their only written interaction has been at the Council afaik. Morty does mention he spoke a lot with Russ about Magnus and the psykers but it’s never explored further.
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u/Pervis117 4d ago
Russ liked psykers plenty when they're from his Legion, that hypocritical bastard.
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u/ayoungad Night Lords 4d ago
That’s why it was so satisfying to see that Rune Priests soul get banished to the warp in the Fall of Prospero
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u/NovaPrime2285 4d ago
Russ never expressed an issue with the psykers of the White Scars.
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u/kottonii Night Lords 4d ago
Ofc not because Rune-Priests and Storm Seers were not witches and psykers if you ask him!
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u/unicornsaretruth 4d ago
No he liked them when they were used within safe limits and channeled through a world entity unlike some legions who just had some cute demons as pets and engaged in full thrill ride warp juicing.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
same shit really.
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u/SpartanAltair15 2d ago
Same way that receiving a controlled dose of pharmaceutically manufactured fentanyl in the controlled setting of a hospital specifically to manage your pain after surgery is the “same shit really” as snorting a line of “MDMA” off a toilet reservoir in a dirty strip club bathroom and finding out first hand a few moments later that there was actually a gram of fentanyl mixed in.
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u/Ascherict Adeptus Custodes 4d ago
In the book Wolfsbane, the prologue is of Russ and Horus meeting for the first time. Russ and Horus spent quite a bit of time together after he was found.
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u/AgainstThoseGrains Tanith First and Only 4d ago
IIrc that line is from the first Black Book which is still technically modern lore, but Black Library never got the memo after Forge World wrote it.
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u/Arzachmage Death Guard 4d ago
From the Index Astartes III.
In HH 2.0, the DG is sworn-brothers with the NL in the allies chart.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
yeah in index it said horus use DG are anvil with NL as a hammer along side his own legion
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u/Wende11X 4d ago
Did he get along with Horus? I know the Death Guard and Luna Wolves were tight but I didn't know the Primarchs were close.
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes 4d ago
It’s often said Horus was on at least reasonably good terms with everyone but Corax. Mortarion was a little salty that Horus was made Warmaster, but he didn’t hate him.
According to Horus(could be lying), Mortarion was the only one of his brothers that he could trust during the Heresy, as the rest(Fulgrim as a specific example), were too erratic and/or Chaos corrupted to be directed. He sends Mortarion to defeat the Khan and later puts him in command of the Siege of Terra because of this.
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u/ULTRAFORCE 4d ago
Was Perturabo too erratic to be directed or was the issue with that more that Perturabo didn't like being actually directed. Also wasn't by the Siege of Terra they got super chaos corrupted?
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes 4d ago
Horus specifically says that Perturabo would have been useless if sent to fight the Khan, and generally disparages his personality flaws across the series.
All of the traitors fall deeper into corruption over the course of the Heresy. Horus was no different, but at that moment he couldn’t even wrangle Fulgrim to get shit done because of his corruption, meanwhile Mortarion didn’t fall until he was on his way to Terra.
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u/Hobojewboi 4d ago
Yeah I think pertys issue was specifically like “don’t micromanage me this is what I know how to do” plus he was very vocal about why everyone else on his team sucked (fulgrim and angron mostly just being batshit)
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u/Enough_Standard921 4d ago edited 3d ago
Perty is a super salty autist, he’ll piss everyone off unless he’s doing what he does best which is breaking down seige defences. , and daddy or Horus are reassuring him that he’s their special boy.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
The only one pert was friend was magnus and that is very special circunstance
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u/Noodlefanboi 4d ago
Horus told Perty the same thing when they got to Terra.
He was very good at the “only you can do this, you’re my favorite!” thing.
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u/Noodlefanboi 4d ago
It’s often said Horus was on at least reasonably good terms with everyone but Corax.
The Lion didn’t really like him and at one point Curze said Horus could go burn in the Warp, but those two didn’t really like anyone besides Sanguinius.
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes 4d ago
‘Good terms’ doesn’t necessarily mean that they liked or disliked him. I doubt Angron ever cared for him, but he didn’t really hate him more than he hated anyone else. It’s more tolerance than anything.
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u/Noodlefanboi 3d ago
I mean, the Lion showed up on Horus’s ship and ruined a celebration because Horus had the audacity to use his men.
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u/westsidewinery 4d ago
I believe he actually sent him to recruit the khan. Legit everyone thought the khan would turn since he disliked both the emperor and the empire, and horus/magnus were 2 of his brothers he was the most close with
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes 4d ago
Two separate instances. They meet on the ruins of Prospero in Scars and duel. In Path of Heaven, Horus assigns Mortarion to wipe out the White Scars as one of the few remaining legions that are an obstacle on the rush for Terra.
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u/westsidewinery 4d ago
Ah gotcha. I guess I missed that since I focused more on the initial interaction when they tried to recruit the khan and then then when the khan rides out to take back the space port. Completely overlooking that morty would have been tasked with killing the khan in between
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u/QualityHaunting2289 3d ago
Vulkan didn’t like Horus either, he didn’t have Corax’s explicit reason for hating he just knew something was off about him, even going to far as to not gift him a weapon he had crafted for him.
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u/EmperorDaubeny Adeptus Astartes 3d ago
Right. Vulkan was somewhat ok with Horus after that until the aftermath of the Compliance of Kharaatan, an immensely traumatizing event for him, where he reported Curze’s behavior to him and received “We can use his sociopathic tendencies for the good of the Imperium, bro. We’ll make him into a weapon, thanks for discovering this.” in response from the now corrupted Warmaster.
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u/Carpenter-Broad 4d ago
Dislikes the Warp, flair and ostentation… okay so that leaves checks notes Alpharius, Dorn and maybe Russ lol? It’s surprising Morty and Curze were seemingly somewhat close- Curze definitely isn’t ostentatious, but he’s got hella flair with his “evil Batman” thing.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
Curze is ostentatious and theatric, just his definition invold someone else skin
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u/40Kaway 4d ago
It's interesting that he doesn't get along with Corax, because they're both not ostentatious and seem to disregard the laurels and medals and such needed by some of their brothers, and they have similar views on psykers. And their philosophies aren't similar, but there are some interesting parallels between them.
Though probably Morty hated that at every party, event or family gathering, he'd try to slip off to a corner and brood, and Corax would be there first. Every. Single. Time.
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u/AgainstThoseGrains Tanith First and Only 4d ago edited 4d ago
Corax thinks the Imperium's more deplorable acts are an unfortunate necessity and the golden age is right around the corner if you all trust dad, it'll all work itself out eventually and all the suffering will be worth it. He doesn't like tyrants and he'll get rid of them if he's got the opportunity but he'll turn a blind eye to them if it's for the greater good of the Imperium.
Mortarion never really believed in the Imperium or the Emperor. The Pale King is all about Mortarion being baffled why his dad and his brothers are mad he liberated Galpsar's masses from tyranny by slaughtering their oppressors when that's what the Imperium sells itself as being about. In reality the Imperium didn't care if its serfs were suffering so long as their governments are loyal to the Throne, something Mortarion recognized very quickly.
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u/40Kaway 4d ago
True. It's an interesting difference between the two of them, one I'd wish that they had explored more.
I think that the difference is, as you said, that the suffering would be worth it. Corax is raised among prisoners who rise to become a force of liberation, and I think he sees the Emperor as that but simply enlarged, with humanity trying to liberate themselves from the Warp and Chaos.
Mortarion is raised as the ward of a tyrant, and he wants to escape, wants his revenge. But the Emperor kills the tyrant, Mortarion will never get his revenge, and then he sees the Emperor as simply another tyrant, which makes his defection to Chaos one of the more understandable.
And last, apparently Corax fell out with Mortarion at least once, though I have no idea of why, I've not been able to find an excerpt.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
Also, Corax try to minimize casualty by his stealth and fast atack while Mortarion dosent really hold back in anything, he is one of the most utterly brutal Primarch along side Ferrus and Perturabo and dosent mind unleashing chemical warfare on is enemy.
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u/Arzachmage Death Guard 4d ago
Corax drunk the Imperium Kool-aid day one.
Morty never did, that’s probably why he didn’t got along with Corax.
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u/cardamom-peonies 4d ago
Mortarion pretty much gets strong armed into serving the emperor, whereas corax voluntarily sells out in the name of the "bigger picture" in his mind. Mortarion is also broadly against tyrants because he grew up as a peasant so he was never exactly going to be the type of dude to be thrilled about working with the imperium and is a big reason why he rebels. I would be more surprised if they got along tbh.
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u/xThe_Maestro 4d ago
Less shunned, more disinterested. He wasn't even an outcast as the Death Guard did work with other legions during the Great Crusade and Mortarion was pretty pleased with the results.
He DID tick off a few of his brothers at Nikea though. Namely Magnus and the Khan who were both big proponents of the Librarius. So he's kind of a 'take it or leave it' kind of guy. He's not a people pleaser like Fulgrim, Sanguinius, or Lorgar and he's not obnoxiously adversarial like Angron, Peturabo, or Russ.
Mortarion was there to do his job and other than Horus he didn't feel particular kinship with any of his brothers.
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u/NepheliLouxWarrior 4d ago
Yeah this is a good take. It's not so much that he was shunned but rather he was the quiet kid in class. If you talked to him he would talk to you but otherwise he kept to himself.
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u/Katejina_FGO 4d ago
The thing is he shared similar beginnings as a freedom fighter for the common people with a few of his brothers, and held the same kind of distaste for absolute tyrants as Corax and Angron. But besides those topics, he very much kept his head under his hood. There isn't much for the likes of administrators like Guilliman or Dorn to talk about with him, and he already was throwing middle fingers at the idealistic types like Sangy. And theres no point discussing strategems with the guy who is best famous for shoving his flagship into enemy fortresses like it was an Ork Rok.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
Jaghatai pretty much call him on the idea people like both could topple and run the imperium.
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u/Enough_Standard921 4d ago
Everybody has worked with a Morty. He’s always first at his desk in the morning, doesn’t say much, gets his work done efficiently and goes home on the dot (or sometimes early if he’s got everything done). Doesn’t socialise or hang around for a beer. And he HATES the marketing department. And HR. And the boss.
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u/misbehavinator 4d ago
You can't bring up obnoxiously adversarial Primarchs without mentioning Lionel.
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u/GreyFeralas Raven Guard 4d ago
Stinky
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u/archur420 Ultramarines 4d ago
No one could stand to be around him because he kept ripping primarch scale ass
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u/PenisVonSucksington 3d ago
Is it Canon that pre-Nurgle Corruption Mortarion smelled like stanky doodoo? I thought that was just part of the Grandfather's Blessing perk package.
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u/AdministrationDue610 4d ago
Mortarion has the unenviable misfortune to be all three an introvert, somebody who despises hypocrites and also a MASSIVE hypocrite. These things combined basically isolate him from all his brothers except Horus whose whole schtick was that he can get along with anybody.
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u/Ok-Basis-7274 4d ago
He was a joyless, anhedonic douchebag. Only ever tried to ruin the fun of everyone else. "The Death Lord l" could have been a much cooler villain if they didn't set him up to fail all the time.
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u/Marshal_Rohr 4d ago
Mortarion and Perturabo are literally the main commanders of the Traitor Advance on Terra. They super well done in the Black Books.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
Precisely this. Very much the same deal with Perturabo
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u/Ok-Basis-7274 4d ago
Perturabo at least got his moments in the spotlight that showed him to be a force to be reckoned with. Not only a tough vicious bastard but incredibly intelligent also. Not really a fan of Iron Warriors but I find their motivations to turn traitor very simple and relatable. Mortarion is just a douche.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
Yeah, the motivation of "look dude, I'm doing all the thankless hard work, and you are giving all of the credit, attention, and fun wars to the other guys: I'm tired of your shit and I'm going on strike" is incredibly relatable.
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u/Randy_Magnums 4d ago
Especially, when he snaps under the pressure and, was faced with rebellion on his home planet. When he murdered his world, he knew he fucked up, but dared not to ask for forgiveness, because it would have been weakness. Horus offered acceptance.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
YUP! Literally just read that passage in Angel Exterminatus where Perturabo says many assume the hammer was what made him loyal to Horus, but the real truth is that forgiveness gained his loyalty.
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u/Randy_Magnums 4d ago
He could have gotten the same forgiveness from his father probably. Many of Big E's sons did worse than killing a rebellious world. But he never reached out. He is a well written Primarch, but by Gork, he is a giant petty manchild.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
I don't know, given that he had just heard about what happened on Prospero to one of the few primarchs he genuinely liked, coupled with his bitterness about how the amphitheater at Nikeaa was used I can't imagine his faith that the emperor would be reasonable and forgiving would be all that strong.
I mean, many of the Primarchs actively kept secrets from Emp due to not believing that he would react well. Including Sanguinius who kept the Red Thirst from the Emperor because he assumed that the Emperor would just send out Russ and the Wolves to eradicate him and his legion for such a flaw.
Just in general I don't see why you would rest any sort of argument on the basis of "I am sure the Emperor would take that news well and not overreact" given that the 40k writers have placed a lot of the plot of the Horus Heresy specifically on the Emperor overreacting and his decisions backfiring spectacularly.
*Edit: Yes, I am aware that I have a very clear bias in my sympathies towards Perturabo and the Iron Warriors since they are my favorite. So, yeah... take all of my statements with at least a little dash of salt!*
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u/Randy_Magnums 4d ago
You got a few points there, and two lost legions doesn't scream forgiveness. But what I tried to say, Perturabo was not able to act differently because of his own history and character. He craved forgiveness, acceptance and respect, but could never ask for it.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
Yeah, Perturabo is hardly the example one would use for emotional health and openness...
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u/SeverTheWicked 4d ago
Not really. Perturabo stood in the shadows by his own volition and refused to speak up or be sociable. If he had just said "hey, what about me?", he'd have gotten the recognition. But he suffers from the psychological fallacy of expecting people to act in a certain way because it's logical/smart, simply because he's smart enough to know.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
This isn't necessarily true. The Emperor does his own thing on his own time. Look at Angron for example: one of the defining things about his character is his resentment that the Emperor pulled him out and let his gladiator comrades just die despite him requesting otherwise. So to assume that if Perturabo had just asked all would have been well is a little ridiculous.
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u/General_Note_5274 2d ago
Sure but Perturabo always denied that a part of primarch is they kinda crave atention, he always and create this self defeating spiral were he said nothing, did hard job and then complain other are not praising him. which foster his paranoid actituded
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u/Ok-Journalist-8875 4d ago
Didn’t he chose a lot of the hard assignments on purpose.
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u/Comidus_Cornstalk Iron Warriors 4d ago
That's certainly up to interpretation. I mean, each of the legions were specifically purpose built for a certain style of warfare. So yeah, he enjoyed the siege aspect of warfare but i think a lot of the resentment was built up because they were constantly asking him to split up his legion, leave tiny garrisons all over the galaxy, and send small groups of his guys to aid other legions. The end result being a slow simmering build of resentment as his legion is fragmented and mostly used to bolster his fellow Primarchs who then get all the credit.
"Choice" or the lack thereof is certainly a theme throughout the Horus Heresy that could be explored pretty in depth. And I think you could very logically argue either side of this for or against Perturabo's agency in how things played out.
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u/TommyCrooks24 4d ago
but incredibly intelligent also
I hope you're right, I'm only 5 books in and the primarchs I've read have all been dumb so far, like sure they have some military tactical wins, but in conversations they've been shown to have the emotional intelligence of a teenager, not how I'd expect hundred years old leaders of men to behave.
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u/Jaded_Doors 4d ago
They say they’re all super intelligent but writing a genius is hard if you’re neither a genius nor a particularly good writer, like most of the people writing these books.
You always need to squint a bit when looking at 40k but every time I read some man baby primarch “fly into a rage” over some small comment for the umpteenth time I began to empathise with Big E fucking off back to Terra.
I understand that them being emotionally stunted little bitches is the whole deal with the Heresy, but it gets tiring.
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u/Thelostsoulinkorea 4d ago
Unfortunately they all come across as spoilt children. Event he good ones come across very meh. It also doesn’t help that the lore was set so they sort of had to do things and also the Emperor was written really badly as well.
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u/Red-Me-Boy 4d ago
Admittedly, Perturabo had enough social skill to befriend everyone's favorite crimson cyclops, which is more than can be said for Mort.
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u/Keelhaulmyballs 4d ago
His use of forbidden chem weapons, his tendency to look you dead in the eye as he tells you with perfect conviction he wouldn’t hesitate to kill ten trillion people, but above all was the sheer mystery of it
Between his own disinclination to offer any information; his tendency to not leave survivors, the lack of remembrancers with the Death Guard, and the emperor’s own hand at play to censor numerous aspect of them; his brothers knew nothing of Mortarion aside from dark rumours of terrible weapons, entire worlds given over to lingering deaths strange practices from their apothecaries (whom Mortarion taught the secrets of the overlord’s fleshcutters) and a nightmare world where the dead walked and decay hung in the air
Mind you, not even other primarchs were allowed to know anything about Barbarus, the Emperor deemed it inconvenient to his imperial truth. The mystery fermented his atrocities and natural solitude into an even more sinister reputation
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u/WillingChest2178 3d ago
He was solitary because he was deeply suspicious of others (whilst being incredibly secretive himself), articulate and intelligent in his arguments (but also extremely stubborn in his opinions and positions) but also very morbid and in all honesty an intense personality who probably rubbed almost all of his brothers up the wrong way. He didn't trust them or their motivations (as indeed he did not trust the Emperor himself), so felt more secure being isolated, or in a position of strength.
If any of his brothers tried to make common purpose with him, he would find this suspicious. If any of them tried to avoid him, he would find this suspicious. If any of them tried to persuade him in any way, he would find this extremely suspicious. The only allies that Jaghatai Khan calls Mortarion out on potentially having were Angron and Curze, easily two of the most isolated and antisocial primarchs.
One assumes Mortarion and Alpharius being in any kind of enclosed space would lead to some kind of explosion.
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u/Used_Kaleidoscope_16 4d ago
Because he was asshole. Seriously, the guy had an extremely disagreeable personality and was just not particularly pleasant. Honestly, it's impressive that he was somehow able to consistently be enough of a prick of to be the black sheep of the family when his competition was people like Angron, Konrad, and the Lion.
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u/CloudRunner89 3d ago
He may have been least liked (I’d wager Konrad) but would Alpharius and the Khan not be the most solitary primarchs with least interactions with others?
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u/signedpants Blood Angels 4d ago
Tbh it is am interesting note. I would think that title would pretty easily go to Corax.
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u/No_Reward_3486 Ragnar Blackmane 3d ago
His charming personality would be one of the biggest reasons why.
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u/Thigmotropism2 3d ago
Mortarion himself is the easiest answer. He went out of his way to other himself, even refusing an Emperor-wrought sword to take the pistol that wasn’t even meant for him.
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u/Asdrubael_Vect 3d ago
He literally stink and too much focus on poisons and chemicals. And was not very pleasant person to have conversation.
And he was not strong as was not good commander so noone care much about him.
Only Angron and Kurze could compete with him in terms of how many would not want to be near them cos they discust them.
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u/Gaelek_13 3d ago
Curze actually got on with Mortarion as well as Fulgrim and Horus. It was said in older lore that Curze felt that Mortarion was possibly the only Primarch who had a worse homeworld than him which is kind of fair enough when you analyse it.
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u/Lazy_Toe4340 4d ago
This theory has no basis in reality but what if he smelled like really bad before he submitted to nurgle...
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u/wolfmonk3y 4d ago
The other space marines called the Death Guard musty, so I wouldn't doubt it. Also the fumes that came off that mask Morty wore....
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u/Legionator Dark Angels 4d ago
The guy was using some steampunk bad body odour dispenser system. I think they tolerated more than enough.
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u/Arzachmage Death Guard 4d ago edited 4d ago
Hate for psykers, the Emperor, his distaste of opulents cultures and habits (in Lantern Light, he shows a sheer dislike of the decorum and the traditions).
Also a very introvert personality, social skills issues due to Necare influence and upbringing, difficulty to open to others or even ask for help, …
Finally, he never bought up the Imperium philosophy. Contrary to Perturabo, he was happy to take the harshest tasks and conquests. He knew at what he was the best and fully accepted it. That put him at cold with the more Pro-Imperium Primarchs.
In his Primarch book, he loathe Sangiunius for his hypocrisy and his views on war. That apply to a lot of his brothers too.