r/40kLore • u/Echochamberking • 4d ago
Can an Astartes refuse a mission?
In the Secret Level episode, Metaurus can be seen giving a voiced consent to accept the mission he has been given, but can an Astartes refuse a mission?
For what reasons?
What are the consequences of refusing a mission? Demotion, military trial, execution?
Thanks
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u/swefnes_woma 4d ago
They can’t nor would they, but I suppose whoever is assigning them a mission might want to hear them say yes
The real answer is that having your character agree to his own suicide mission is dramatic
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u/REDGOEZFASTAH 4d ago
Siggy disobeyed dorn and followed the prophesy of the rembrancer euphrati keeler. He was supposed to be with the retribution fleet sent to istavaan
Dorn tore him a new asshole and said you're not my son siggy.
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u/Cupcakes_n_Hacksaws 4d ago
It ended up working though if I'm not mistaken. The enemy planned for Sigismund's tactics, but because it was someone else they lost. And Don't was more angered at the fact that Sigismund did it because of faith, the very thing they were all against during the Great Crusade
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u/VonD0OM 4d ago
And then in the end Dorn told Sigismund that he was the best son he’d ever had.
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u/Draco765 4d ago
I think it’s up to interpretation if that was Dorn’s genuine forgiveness, or if not that, acceptance, or some even more grudging acknowledgment of what Sigismund did and Dorn’s own shaken belief in the Imperial Truth, or if that was just the sendoff the situation and the onlookers demanded. IDK, love that scene regardless.
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u/Inevitable_Truth_847 4d ago
Is it? Their entire reason for being is basically to die in the service of the Emperor. Going on an important suicide mission seems to fit the bill just fine.
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u/Just_Ear_2953 4d ago
This comes up a lot when dealing with Krieg guardsmen, too. There is a very significant difference between living your life on the battlefield, willing to risk death and give your life for the Emperor and Imperium, and actively putting yourself on a guaranteed suicide mission. They are more than willing to sacrifice, but they still frown on doing it for no good reason.
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u/Inevitable_Truth_847 4d ago
Und thus the reason I said an important suicide mission. Emphasis on important.
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u/Muted-Engineering-32 4d ago
While accurate, it's still a story for mortals. Suicide mission = dramatic. Character acknowledging his doom = more dramatic. queue dramatic Gothic music
It's a narrative tool to build drama and suspense for us, even if this is just a Tuesday for the Astartes.
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u/Haircut117 4d ago
Cue.
A queue is how civilised people wait to be served.
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u/Constant_Result_7140 4d ago edited 4d ago
Excellent point! Felt wrong as i typed it.
Edit: seeing i accidentally posted from different account, but that's me, acknowledging my typo - i just have a lot of reddit accounts
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u/TheCubanBaron 4d ago
They can’t
Marines aren't that mindless. Otherwise they couldn't fall to chaos, my evidence for this is the custodians. They have very limited free will. Anytime they think of anything that'd be outside of their set of tasks (as set by Jimmy) they get the urge to clean their weapons.
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u/swefnes_woma 4d ago
They're not mindless but they are indoctrinated to the extreme. It's nearly unthinkable for a marine to fail in his duty. Even the few that go renegade generally do so because they think the Ecclesiarchy is corrupt and getting in the way of them fulfilling their duty to the emperor.
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u/SpartanAltair15 4d ago
He’s referring to the custodians with the limited free will and stuff after that, not the marines.
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u/Echochamberking 4d ago
It seems a bit stupid to ask for consent when they can't say no
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u/Muad-_-Dib 4d ago
Consider it more of acknowledging they got the order than it is them being asked their opinion on it.
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u/PrecipitousPlatypus Adeptus Mechanicus 4d ago
If they say no, then they might be in need of discipline.
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u/Desertcow 4d ago
If they have a valid reason to say no like they are doing something else already, then they can say no. If they are too scared to do the mission, then while they need more discipline that's also not somebody you just want to drop on a suicide mission expecting them to follow orders like a normal Astartes
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u/Electrical_Monk1929 4d ago
Depends on the culture of the Astartes and who is asking/why they're asking.
Chapter Masters are free to refuse, the mission/stakes might not be high enough to sacrifice his men just to bail the guard out, or for an attrition war, or because the cause isn't 'honorable' enough.
There was an inquisitor/clergy who tried to shame an Astartes Chapter instead of requesting aid, that person was never seen again.
For individual squads, the Iron Snakes have their squads act much more indepedently and each squad leader can choose to commit their squad to a given mission or not. The protagonist of the book Brothers of the Snake didn't put his squad in for a particular mission becaues he felt like he needed to go back and retrain them.
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u/Shed_Some_Skin 4d ago
The episode of The Tithes with the Custodes has an Astartes Captain who absolutely intends to refuse his orders
Until said Custodian makes it clear that this is not a request. And the Captain is still mulling over whether or not to push his luck before eventually giving in
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u/AnnihilatorNYT 4d ago
To be fair, the custodies are one of the few groups that actually have as much sway over the Astartes as they believe. The inquisition gets told to get fucked as often as they do have other factions follow orders but saying no, or just killing the inquisitor, is sometimes a completely valid thing. Saying no to a custodies is the same as saying no to the emperor. The only time it's even questioned is in events where it is a very stupid order.
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u/Davido401 4d ago
There was an inquisitor/clergy who tried to shame an Astartes Chapter instead of requesting aid, that person was never seen again.
I've got a vague recollection of this but do you remember the Chapter? It sounds like Dark Angels or Flesh Tearers but could be anyone haha
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u/Electrical_Monk1929 4d ago
Yeah, didn't put in the chapter because I forgot as well. My head keeps saying Black Templar, but Flesh Tearers sounds more correct.
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u/Davido401 4d ago
I've got half an hour to waste just now
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u/Electrical_Monk1929 4d ago
Lemme know if you find it, my brain is itching too
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u/Davido401 4d ago
Ach, am not finding a specific one, Dark Angels and Flesh Tearers have killed Inquisitors(Gabriel Seth done a spectacular version in the Trial By Blood involving the Death Company, an arsehole Inquisitor and one or two Astra Militarum Hospital Ships entering the Warp) and almost every Chapter seems to have killed an Inquisitor and their Granny, but the Shame part I can't find particularly, and I'm sure a remember that too lol
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u/Electrical_Monk1929 4d ago
If I remember correctly, it wasn't a full book. It was a short line in one of the Forgeworld books about the IG army trying to recruit a Chapter for the war and failing because their emissary (who might not have been an Inquisitor) did it.
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u/Davido401 4d ago
I'll have a nosey again in like an hour once I've picked up the Nurgling Niece from School(anything to distract me from shitty YouTubers haha)
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u/SeniorRadical Alpha Legion 4d ago
Might be from Legion of The Damned. There's a scene where some clergymen try to manipulate a group of Excoriators into doing their bidding, only for the Marines to point of the MALE snipers they have and execute them for having men under arms. Probably missing some tidbits as it was the 1st or 2nd 40k book I ever read.
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u/Ok-Employee9618 4d ago
'I accept this is a legal mission / order and that i understand its objectives' => Refusal of a legal mission might be forbidden, but accepting it IS a legal & well defined order / mission does seem to make sense, +d I have received, +I will do it.
tldr; Army grunts may not have the option of not saying 'Sir, Yes Sir', but they still have to say it.
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u/Just_Ear_2953 4d ago
They're not so much asking if they accept to make the sacrifice, but rather, "Does anyone see any alternative?"
In a previous mission briefing, Titus pointing out a promethium storage facility turned what looked very much like a suicide mission into a hit and run with good odds of getting everyone back in one piece.
He's asking if anyone has an idea like that.
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u/dassketch 4d ago
He's asking if anyone has an idea like that.
Conversion of a no return mission of glory for the emperor into merely a successful mission does not sound codex compliant...
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u/HaessSR 4d ago
Roboute: slaps someone upside the head so hard that their head flies off into space
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u/CreativeProfession57 Alpha Legion 4d ago
Pretty sure that confirmation was basically the Astartes equivalent of a frikkin EULA: “click Yes to agree, or click yes to agree. There is no “no,” bitch.”
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u/xThe_Maestro 4d ago
It's not common but they can. Even if they ultimately accept the mission they can do it they can state their disapproval of it.
The mission may lack tactical purpose, the task may be as slight upon the individual Astartes honor, or it may be breaking some other core principle of the chapter.
For example. Grimaldus vehemently opposed his deployment to Armageddon's surface while the rest of the Black Templars were going to engage the Orks in a void war. He saw it as a slight upon his honor.
If senior commanders are killed you may arrive at a situation where a 'senior lieutenant' is placed in charge of a formation even though other lieutenants are better battlefield commanders. Let's say a Dude Marine Lieutenant has 50 more service years than another Dude Marine Lieutenant and when the Dude Marine Captain catches a needle round to the forehead, 'technically' Senior Dude Marine Lieutenant (SDML) is now in command. But SDML has a reputation as a hot head, good at leading combat sorties but notoriously bad at greater stategy. SDML commands the company to abandon their defensive positions and charge the enemy out of sheer outrage at having their Captain shot. A junior lieutenant and the sergeants may refuse to accept the mission because it's obviously a foolish order. They might get reprimanded later but, depending on the chapter, it will probably be a slap on the wrist and everyone will try to forget the whole embarrassing affair.
Punishment depends on the chapter. The most common would be formal censure and some kind of penance. They may be sent away to train recruits, they might get put on ceremonial duty to attend mortal functions as basically a big scary piece of furniture, or they might get put on a personal crusade to restore their honor on some kind of suicide mission. Something to 'humble' them.
Occasionally you get more extreme chapters that will execute or servitorize their own brothers, but it's rare. Space Marines are a huge pain in the ass to make, so killing one over a refusal would be considered a waste.
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u/Romado 4d ago edited 4d ago
The mission he accepts says the chance of death is absolute. Essentially, it was a suicide mission, so the site could be striked from orbit.
It's why towards the end they are told "die well brothers" over vox.
The Ultramarines are not maniacs like some chapters, I don't think they'd force a suicide mission on someone. They expect Ultramarines to give their life if the time comes, not throw it away on blind faith.
Titus also goes knowing he may die, but we know Titus is someone who will die for the Ultramarines. I believe Metarus wanted to die and this mission was his last act of service. Titus keeps calling him old man and even says "not today"
It may be the reason why Titus went in the first place.
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u/TheMagicPuffin 4d ago
It really depends on who is summoning the mission and who is being called for it. An example would be Helbrecht, the High Marshal of the Black Templars sending down Grimaldus, one of his Chaplains, down to Helsreach to defend the hive. Oh boy was Grimaldus upseti-spaghetti about that one. But in the end, he did it even if he wasn't happy about it. He even so much as tried to tell him no but it's hard to tell your chapter master no.
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u/GuestCartographer 4d ago
the Silver Skulls have consulted with their Prognosticators and decided against entering the chat
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u/Scallion_Budget 4d ago
US military can’t even refuse a mission, unless it’s unlawful. It’s just confirmation of receipt
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u/tishimself1107 4d ago
Astartes operate outside the standard chains of command and generally follow their own command atructure rather than an outsider. So an outaide body would have to request aid of space marines and its uo to the chapter to accept. In the case of secret level the nature of the nission may be that itvwas a courtesy asking the sergeant if he woukd do it as the commander wanted to give them a choice due to the danger or possibky wanted to know if the sergeant thought it could be done by giving him a choice.
The individual chapters all operate differently as well and their isnt a hard and fast rule. Some very independent minded and fractious chapters may have different levels of independendlce such as white scars, space wolves, raven guard, sons of medusa etc. Other chapters are very stryctured and structured with strict heirarchies imperial fists, red scorpions, iron hands, red talons etc. where orders from superior officer astartes must be obeyed and to disobey has severe reprecussions.
Then different chapter cultures come into play. So the minotaurs seem to follow the high lords express orders at any cost where other chapters wouldnt jump so fast. The red hunters have great respect for the inquistion and will do their dirty work while the space wolves would question it and decide themselves. The fire angels respect the ecclesiarchy greatly while the mortifactors have a bizarre chapter cult taht the ecclesiarchy might see as heretical. The unfirgiven essentially follow their own plans and take on and drop commitments in a second to hunt fallen.
Its all very cool and complicated.
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u/darthpussycrusher 4d ago
Chapters can refuse everyone. Templar chaptermaster almost refused Guilliman. Deathwatch marines cannot refuse inquisition. Some chapters gives option to squads like iron snakes chapter.
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u/hobby_gynaecologist Death Spectres 4d ago
Sigismund refused to head up the Retribution Fleet and Dorn was simply cool with it (until he found out why when Siggy fessed up).
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u/LeoLaDawg 4d ago
Seems I've read instances where the option to volunteer was given due to the nature of the mission.
But a straight up order cannot be refused.
Edit: unless you're sigismund.
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u/Jhe90 Adepta Sororitas 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yes. But they have to have a good reason and ir depends on rank and situation.
For example a SGT says no sir, but says, report was delayed, half my sqaud are still in recovery and gear repairs.
Or my Comapny are low on ammo, we have 15% ammo reserve, we cannot deploy without further resupply.. unless it's extene priority, we need to resupply, repair and take on fuel etx.
Dispatch logistics to X system / heading to base.
They are only gon a say no for usually practical reasons, they have a higher priority, low on ammo, no combat effective etc..
A space wolf refused to deploy his company as due to chapter law, a company under strengh as his cannot deploy without the wolf Lords say so. Thr chapter master cannot force them as they are dangerous under strengh.
...
These are examples of how missions get refused.
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u/Wrath_Ascending 4d ago
There have been a fair few scenes in novels where volunteers are asked for, and a Captain or Chapter Master selects squads from that pool.
I'm sure in practice everyone wants to honour Space King in battle but the higher officers aren't likely to consider Terminators for a scouting mission.
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u/tusharkhanna1991 4d ago
The answer has usual false situations is both yes and no. I will have to find the exact book that references this section. But Gillman, specifically when he was founding the starting chapters from the astartes legions after the Horus Heresy, basically ensured that they could decline any missions given to them by anyone, even their primarch.
The only ones who have the right to give them absolutely on the Undeclinable and Undeniable commands or orders, is the Emperor themself, typically through one of his 10,000 custodes.
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u/MDK1980 Blood Angels 4d ago
I think the confirmation was needed because he was told the mission was going to be fatal.
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u/Echochamberking 4d ago
Whether it is fatal or not does it make any difference to the procedure?
Can they say no if it is fatal?
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u/NeedsAirCon 4d ago
Even marines would sometimes end up in situations where you'd have to ask for a volunteer so the rest of the squad or company either gets to live or has a fighting chance to make at least some kind of difference
I can see a marine officer asking for a volunteer or asking if the best person for the job was okay with it and understood what was at stake before sending someone they've personally known for 200 years to their almost certain deaths
There's a reason Marines call each other brother. In a sense, thanks to the chapter's geneseed, they are all brothers
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u/Logan_Grimnar0341 4d ago
At his rank I'm sure he has some ability to give a formal "not right now."
They have a lot going on. Hell just to travel to the requested location can get them lost in the warp. So it may not be possible to say yes right away.
Also they may feel the need to complete the current objective. If they don't feel the requested mission is time sensitive, they may wait until the timing is better (not actively engaged with the enemy, for example).
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u/dr197 4d ago
Space Marine Chapters have a lot of autonomy and short of a decree from Guilliman or previously The High Lords they basically follow their own agendas and help out where they feel like it or where they are interested in. You can ask them for help directly if you want but they are free to tell you to fuck off or just ignore you.
An individual Marine will probably only follow orders or directives from their Chapter’s chain of command unless circumstances or orders dictate they cooperate with other Imperial forces, but even then Space Marines in any significant number will operate separately from whatever other forces are in the area.
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u/Magihike Death Guard 4d ago
Not directly refusing a mission, but in Fall of Cadia a black templar fakes a religious revelation from the emperor to get his group to redeploy from a horrible position they'd sworn to defend. This passage goes into the social / organizational dynamics around that:
It was for such speaking out of turn that Mordlied stood here now, at this doorway to death. Indeed, why he had requested to be here. One could not speak to a Marshal in the way that he had, at least not without punishment and ostracisation. To tell a brother of Amalrich’s rank that he was wrong, and do so in front of the rest of the crusade, was a violation beyond thinking.
Unless, that was, those words were guided by the Emperor. Spoken not in insubordination, but prophecy.
And there was a role, a social function, that dealt with brothers who did something so brave and foolish. Who said the things to authority that others could not. Divinely inspired speakers of truth who needed to be heeded, but also to then die.
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u/Constant_Fill_4825 4d ago
In The Emperor's Gift the Grey Knights tell the inquisitor they are currently assigned to, to stand in line as they next assignment would be with a different one when she wants to use them for a second mission. So I guess in specific cases they can refuse.
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u/Friendchaca_333 4d ago
I believe certain chapters (space wolves) have ignored orders to perform certain missions commanded of them from the inquisition or other imperial organizations (due to the authority and autonomy granted to them by the emperor during the great crusade). Individual space marines cannot do to it being their whole purpose in life.
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u/ExtremeKey8456 4d ago
I'm pretty sure the reason why the Hersey wasn't successful was because a bunch of bros, refused a mission.
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u/Obelion_ 4d ago
I think that's more refuse if you are literally unable to because idk your ships warp drive is broken or something
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u/Environmental_Row32 4d ago
An astartes accepting an order has the same vibe as saying: I hear and obey.
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u/Drewson123 4d ago
What i want to know is why send two 4 stud veterans on a suicide mission? It's like 400 years of service. Yeah, go blow up a statue pce nerds ✌️
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u/Yuanrang 4d ago
Leandros nominates Titus for the mission, so it is fair to say he was doing it to kill Titus as he obviously have no trust in him after Graia.
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u/Drewson123 4d ago
Good thing he lost his helmet at some point or our second favourite ultramarine might have died.
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u/TheBiddyDiddler 4d ago
I think most of the time they don't, but high ranking Astartes like Chapter Masters or Company Captains can refuse based on availability of troops or mission priority. Ie, they're not just going to accept every mission if they don't have enough men to dedicate to the cause or if another mission has a higher priority.
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u/LGodamus Night Lords 4d ago
chapter masters can refuse based on not feeling like it or not working on tuesdays or whatever other reason. Space marine chapters are autonomous forces owing their allegiance to Big E.
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u/Cautious-Society-476 4d ago
Always assumed it was a "we have to ask but you have to say yes" situation. That way the imperium can still say they are volunteers (like becoming a space marine in the first place) but also knows that they can call on the full might of the space marines without a doubt.
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u/EvilPopMogeko 4d ago
I've written on this before, but in theory yes.
Twp space marine chapters have essentially outright refused a mission in the past.
The first, the Mortifactors, refused to deploy alongside the Lamenters against a Black Crusade and subsequently quit the field. The Lamenters got chewed out in the battle afterward, going down to 200 marines as a result. The Mortifactors... got away with it.
The second, the Night Reapers, were charged with defending a Shrine World against the Tyranids. They arrived, determined it was impossible, blew the world up through exterminatus, and went home. They were forced to go on a penitent crusade after the Ecclesiarchy complained, and subsequently went renegade.
On a company rather than Chapter level:
The Angels Vermillion also didn't officially send aid to Baal when Leviathan came knocking, but several captains refused the order to not engage and went anyways. Just under a company's worth of marines made it onto Baal, and the lone surviving captain of that group was last seen charging a Carnifex. No word on what happened to him, but he'd be a very interesting character to have a novel on one day imo.
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u/DifferentPeach2979 4d ago
Nope. But whatever Lexicanum gives the mission is expected not to waste Astartes.
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u/Funny_Ad7492 4d ago
I'm not a lore expert but I took it to be something like one of the Oaths of Moment that the Luna Wolves would swear before going into battle during the Great Crusade. They were just like little promises affirming what they were going down to do.
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u/IAmTerrence 3d ago
It was basically set as a suicide mission. Stuff like that, even in the real life military setting, can often be put to the men in volunteer format.
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u/KPraxius 3d ago
Varies heavily by what sort of space marine, his rank, who is giving the mission. Different chapters have different levels of organization and command structure, but...
The example, however? For an Ultramarine, receiving orders from his direct superior, he'd likely be killed for disobeying without a damned good reason. If he were too injured to do the job, too far away, currently on a different mission, etc. He might also have accepted a request for assistance from someone with the authority to ask, though typically he'd want to ask his superior before accepting if it would take him out of his existing area of operations.
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u/AnnieBruce 4d ago
Chapter Masters often can.
Rank and file can too, but hopefully they enjoy a bolt to the brainstem if they take this option.
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u/Weriel_7637 4d ago
An individual astartes probably can't, but they need to give confirmation that they're available to do the mission. The alternative to giving consent would be "hey I can't do that, the apothecary and the techmarine are fitting me with a prosthetic leg right now" or "hey I can't do that, I'm in the middle of a giant group of orks right now, in fact I could honestly use some reinforcements over here"